PODCAST with Abraham Lincoln, the transcript

[If podcasts had been a thing dating all the way back to the 1800s . . . ]

[Artwork by my cousin, Roger Singer.]

April 13, 1865

Chuck Plowman is a journalist for the Stars and Stripes newspaper. He is also an award-winning podcaster hosting a weekly podcast program interviewing important political figures of the time.

Chuck Plowman: [standing to greet his guest] "Mr. President, thank you very much for your time, sir. Please do come in. Have a seat." [gesturing with an open hand toward a seat across what appears to be a cleared work bench.]

Abe Lincoln: [stooping slightly to enter, then looking around the darkly lit workplace] "Good evening, Chuck. What is this, we're meeting in your barn?"

CP: "No sir, my carriage house. Well, my converted carriage house. This is where I conduct my podcasts and writing."

AL: "Thank you for having me." [brief pause while taking his seat] "Please pardon my naivete. This is my first podcast. How do we begin?"

CP: "To get things rolling, sir, a puff ball opening question. What did you have for breakfast this morning?"

AL: [smiling] "Blueberry scone with hot chocolate. Delicious. I usually imbibe heartily of cups of black coffee in the morning, but a celebratory hot chocolate coming on the heels of the close of our hellish Civil War. It's cause for a change before getting back to a very full schedule."

CP: "Blueberry scone and hot chocolate. I understand that as a sitting President you'll have opposition to about 50% of anything you do, just given our divisive politics of today, but I submit to you that there'll be a much smaller number of constituents finding fault with that breakfast choice."

AL: [laughing and scratching his beard] "I suspect you're speaking truth there, Chuck."

CP: "Mr. President, you mentioned the hellish war. Starting with that, if we may."

AL: "By all means."

CP: "With the official end of fighting just earlier this week, what have these last few days been like?"

AL: [pause, gathering his thoughts] "Relief and, at the same time . . . absolutely awful. The relief was Sunday, General Lee surrendering to General Grant at Appomattox, the courthouse. The awful is the aftermath calculating the number of lives lost, on both sides, the wreckage reaped. All the parents of all those lost boys, the human waste . . . " [pausing looking at an empty space on the ground, regathering] "There is no easy way of going forward after these last few years. Yet, go forward we must."

CP: "What happens from here?"

AL: "The rebuilding. The Reconstruction. We must behave in a conciliatory way. If we are truly to be one nation again, then we must behave so."

CP: "Regarding Reconstruction, please explain."

AL: "I understand this won't be welcome by everyone, but my vision of Reconstruction includes not just the rebuilding, of course, but the right of suffrage for all freedmen."

CP: "Sir, 'not welcome' is lightly stated. There is even opposition to that vision on your side of the political aisle."

AL: "That's true, and it's necessary for that discussion to commence. But that's not all. We need to protect the legal rights of these newly freedmen, their citizenship and right to own property. There must be an effort to establish schools and churches. This is a grand opportunity for social and economic progress for this young nation. Additionally, Chuck, those 11 states need to be re-seated in Congress. There is much to be done and, by God, it will be so."

CP: "Sir, these last few years have made you powerful enemies. How does that shape your thinking?"

AL: "It doesn't. My thinking is shaped for positive effect. Positive effect, not happy effect. I will absolutely not appease those who want me to stand down. That's not why I was elected into office. I will wield my time as President to enable good. Good for the nation. The whole nation, not just one half to hold sway over the other."

CP: "Let's change gears and go a little softer. In researching for our podcast today, I heard about a childhood incident about you and muddy footprints on the ceiling of your childhood home. Do you care to confirm or deny."

AL: [chuckling at the recollection] "Oh gosh, I was 12. Yes, confirm. But let the record reflect, Chuck, it was my cousin Dennis' idea. This would have been Indiana, Pigeon Creek Farm. You've got to understand, our home had a dirt floor. When it rained, a heavy unrelenting rain, the ground got muddy inside. Dennis and I got into a good deal of tomfoolery, and that rainy afternoon in question was no exception. We were much more nimble then, of course. Standing back to back, we locked arms behind our backs, he bent forward, and lifted me up with my feet upward and they hit the ceiling. Then he took a few steps, and so did I."

CP: "So Dennis was the trouble maker, if I'm hearing right." 

AL: "I wear plenty of shame for some of my sophomoric antics, but you know what that friendly tale doesn't tell is how much trouble we got into. You'll note there is no evidence of a recurrence, given the reprimand issued."

CP: [chuckling at Abe's recounting] "Your cousin Dennis was older than you and living with your family at that time, is that right?"

AL: "That's right. Dennis's parents passed away very young and he lived with us. He was like a brother to me."

CP: "If it's not too intrusive, Mr. President. You've had more than your share of misfortune as it comes to lives cut short. If I may, sir, you've lost two children."

AL: [a brief pause and he clears his throat] "Mary and I have lost two sons, Eddie and Willie. Willie to fever and Eddie to consumption. The pain never goes away, and it starts fresh again every morning. Mary and I both struggle in our own ways dealing with those losses, profoundly so. . . . I am truly sorry for those parents and soldiers who lost lives to this war. It's my job as president to make sure those sacrifices are not wasted."

CP: "The Gettysburg Address, November 1863. Some consider it a great speech and I suspect it will be remembered for a very long time. 'Four score and seven years ago.'"

AL: "Yes, well, thank you. That, of course, was the dedication of the soldiers National Cemetery."

CP: "It is applauded not just for the quality of the message, but so concise. Some might say that it's so short that school children could deliver it."

AL: "Truth is, Chuck, if a fella makes enough speeches, eventually he'll get a few of them right."

CP: [laughing] "Yes, well, I keep saying the same about my podcasts. Hopefully I'll eventually get one of these right. . . . Sir, what does happiness mean to you?"

AL: "Successful legislation followed by a game of horseshoes in the evening behind the oval office with a quaff of beer. Mary doesn't like all that clanging of horseshoes striking the iron. I told her I'd have a rose garden planted as a compromise."

CP: [prompting delicately] "With all due respect, sir, you're a man who's had some grief. Yet, here you are, looking to be in relative good spirits."

AL: "Thank you, Chuck, for the push back. I have my struggles, to be sure. But happiness is a choice. A person can dwell on life's challenges  and its downpours, or one can proceed with a positive attitude. I'm not talking about 'lemonade out of lemons' blind optimism, but positivity allowing one to keep going forward in the face of what might otherwise be debilitating grief."

CP: "Sir-"

AL: "Please, if I may continue. You raise an important question and it's worthy of a proper response. Personal struggles. Bouts of depression. There were days where the greatest struggle was finding a reason to get up out of bed. Chuck, there have been too many parents these last few years burying their boys. Mary and I have done the same. Getting out of bed in morning, on too many days it was an awful task with which to start the day, but the day starts with that because there is work to be done. And my staying in bed calling it quits helps no man."

CP: [reviewing notes, then looking at Lincoln] "Let's talk about your House Divided speech. This was after you were nominated to the Senate and is widely regarded as what earned you the Republican Presidential nomination. "A house divided against itself cannot stand. I believe this government cannot endure permanently half slave and half free." That was very powerful stuff."

AL: "I do not expect the Union to be dissolved—I do not expect the house to fall—but I do expect it will cease to be divided." Yes, that was truly inspired. Of course, that was not well received everywhere."

CP: [with a finger pointing to his page of notes] "Very true, sir. The 1860 Presidential election found you winning only two of the 996 counties in the Southern states. The electoral college, though, was decisive with you carrying not just the North, but also California and Oregon." [turning over his page of notes then laying it face down on his work bench]

AL: "That period was a real whirlwind. This became a country in motion."

CP: "The secession from the Union started within a month of your taking office."

AL: "I often wonder, what, if anything, could I have a done differently to avoid war."

CP: "You were inaugurated in March 1861, the war began in April with the attack on Fort Sumter in South Carolina. Then there was the Emancipation Proclamation in September 1862. And just like that, slavery was abolished in the rebel states. A symbolic gesture, I think you'd agree."

AL: "Symbolic, yes, in that they remained enslaved until freed by Union troops, but a necessary step toward manumission."

CP: "Manumission?"

AL: "Freeing the enslaved."

CP: [reading from notes] "I never, in my life, felt more certain that I was doing right, than I do in signing this paper." Your words regarding signing the Emancipation Proclamation.

AL: "And the Union started preparing the army for emancipation."

CP: "Mr. President, speaking of freedmen, yet I haven't heard equality mentioned."

AL: "Chuck, you're broaching the 3/5th Rule. Is that right?"

CP: "Yes, Mr. President. Saying that a black man is equal to 3/5 of a white man. History may view that harshly."

AL: "Let me ask you a question. Do you believe one man is equal to 3/5 of another?"

CP: "No sir, I believe in equality."

AL: "As do I, and this is at the forefront of the conversation. It won't be an easy conversation. I know you're a student of history. What was the intent of the 3/5 rule?"

CP: "Mr. President, I'm going to fall short of your eloquence, but it was to keep the southern states in check, so to speak."

AL: "That's right. It dates back to 1787 counting enslaved blacks as three-fifths of a white man. It was an unsavory yet necessary compromise to prevent the slaveholding states from having disproportionate influence over the Presidency and Congress."

CP: "If I may interrupt, please, Mr. President. So the discounting of blacks was done for political purposes?"

AL: "Politics is . . . it can be dirty. It's also important. It was necessary to do what could be done to make sure the slaveholding states do not control or unduly influence the three houses of Congress."

CP: "Do you think there'll ever be a Black President of the United States?"

AL: "The United States is made up of good people. We have some healing to do. But yes. Yes, absolutely."

CP: "Where do you think future generations will look back harshly on us, the accepted social sensibilities of our time."

AL: "In addition to the three-fifth rule, Black voting rights. Women's voting right. Every time there's a big political issue, Mary Todd gets hot and tells me what she and the other wives are thinking. And you know what, she's right. And the nation is going to have to catch up some day."

CP: "Let's go in a different direction. What advise would you give to your 20-year old self?"

AL: "Possibly, the hat. Maybe I would advise that I develop a penchant for a different hat style. I was 6'-4" at 20 years old. I had attained above-average height and was already conspicuous in any crowd, then the top hat escalated that unnecessarily. But it enhances my presence, am I right?"

CP: [smiling] "With all due respect, Mr. President, you're 6'4", and then you add that fantastic hat. Sir, you stand out. OK, what do you think the future holds?"

AL: "Well, footwear for starters. No disrespect to our local cobblers of today, but there must be a better way to outfit these old dogs." [Abe pointing at his feet.] "Also, I foresee improved White House security. Certainly the White House is the house of the people, but it is surprisingly easy to breach. Seemingly monthly citizens walk in and expects to have a conversation over breakfast. It's important I hear from the people, of course, but there's work to be done and these unannounced visits can be distracting."

CP: "OK, rapid fire questions. What book is on your nightstand right now?"

AL: "The Autobiography of Benjamin Franklin. I'd been meaning to start The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, but that strikes a little close to home just yet. Maybe next year.

CP: "Do I understand this correctly, you have a patent? Is that right?"

AL: [chuckling quietly to himself] "Correct, yes, you are a well researched scrivener. I spent time in and around Louisiana some years ago and received a patent for a flotation device to move boats in shallow water. General Washington never had a patent, nor those Adams gentlemen."

CP: "What do you think of Alaska?"

AL: "Never been there."

CP: "No, no, I mean, acquiring it."

AL: "Chuck, it's a long way up there. I don't see how it fits."

CP: "You were a wrestling champion, were you not?"

AL: [again with the chuckling] "How did you find this? Yes, I was the county wrestling champion. I was 21." [mock flex of a bicep]

CP: [a proud smile plastered widely across his face] "I do my research, sir. My guests deserve my best work. Your nickname is Honest Abe. That's from your days as an attorney? How'd that come to be?"

AL: [smiling] "That's right. Honest Abe got dropped on me during my time as an attorney in Illinois. As sobriquets go, I could have had much worse, but I do think it important that a person resolve themselves to be honest in all events. Do the right thing, let the consequences take care of themselves."

CP: "Let's put that to the test. True or False. You at one point intended to be a blacksmith?"

AL: [appreciative head nod] "True. I had just returned from the Black Hawk War. But instead of blacksmithing, a partner and I bought a general store. We obtained a bartending license, started selling spirits, then business went south with the partner. I ended up running it mostly by myself. That was fun for a while, though. You know, we sold take-out dinners and it was quite good."

CP: "Good how? Business was good or the dinners were good."

AL: "Business was awful, but the food was good. Well, good enough for me, but I've never been accused of a refined palate."

CP: [laughing, enjoying the colorful exchange with the President.] "Speaking of food, what's your favorite sandwich?"

AL: "My appetite during these war years has been poor, but Mary's pulled pork sandwich is the good eats of special occasions. So, that followed by a gingerbread cookie, or two pending how sticky my fingers are."

CP: "Is there anything we didn't cover that you'd like to hit?"

AL: "I like the Homestead Act, that was a nifty piece of legislation. May I give this a mention?"

CP: "Oh sure, I have family members who directly benefitted. 160 acres of formerly government-held land sold cheaply to those willing to live on it and improve it."

AL: "That's right, millions of acres. And it was possible because the Southern congressmen and senators who opposed it in the 1850s were absent, having seceded."

CP: "What else have you before we go, Mr. President?"

AL: "May I mention the National Banking Act, or is this too pedestrian for our discussion?"

CP: "Your administration issued U.S. paper currency for the first time. Dubbed the greenback on account of it being printed green on the back."

AL: "Very astute, Chuck. The inception of the national banking system and paper money."

CP: "Mr. President, you've been an absolute pleasure. I can only imagine how busy your schedule is at this critical juncture and we appreciate you making time for us. May your future hold many more blueberry scone and hot chocolate breakfasts."

[Abraham Lincoln was born 2/12/1809 in Kentucky and killed at the theater in Washington D.C. on 4/15/1865.]

• 2/20/1862 His son Willie died at 11 years old. Lincoln said, "My poor boy. He was too good for this earth. God has called him home. I know that he is much better off in heaven, but then we loved him so much. It is hard, hard to have him die!"
• 5/20/1862 Homestead Act signed into legislation
• 9/22/1862 Emancipation Proclamation signed into legislation
• 4/9/1865 Lee surrenders to Grant at Appomattox, officially ending the Civil War
• April 15, 1865 Lincoln assassination
• 1867 Alaska joins the Union
• 1870 Black voting rights signed into legislation
• 1913 The White House Rose Garden is planted by Woodrow Wilson's wife, Ellen Louise
• 1920 Women's voting rights signed into legislation

[Maybe I've been listening to too many podcasts lately, but I'd been thinking what ground a podcast with historical figures might traverse. -Klem]